The Darya Rose Show
Oct. 25, 2021

Dave Chang on troubleshooting picky toddlers and cooking without recipes

Dave Chang on troubleshooting picky toddlers and cooking without recipes

Celebrity chef David Chang talks about the universal nightmare of feeding 2 year olds and how recipes are holding you back from greatness.


David Chang is the chef and founder of Momofuku. Since opening his first restaurant, Momofuku Noodle Bar, in 2004, he has received six James Beard Awards, and has been recognized as GQ’s Man of the Year and a Time 100 honoree. 

In 2018, David formed Majordomo Media. He is the host of The Dave Chang Show podcast and two Netflix original documentary series, Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner and Ugly Delicious. His cookbook, Momofuku, and memoir, Eat A Peach, are both New York Times bestsellers. 

His new book Cooking At Home is out October 26.

Fancy salmon roe

Chawan mushi  recipe

Anyday cookware

Lifechanging Kampot black pepper

Momofuku pantry essentials

The Next Thing You Eat  on Hulu with Dave Chang

 

Notice: Any purchases made through my links to Amazon will result in them sending us a few cents that will certainly not cover the cost of running this show.

Transcript

Dr. Darya Rose:

I'm Dr. Darya Rose and you are listening to The Darya Rose Show, where we bring a fact-based perspective to answer all those confounding questions that come up in our day to day lives. From achieving optimal health to making conscious choices about your purchases and raising kids that thrive. We are here to help you navigate your life with confidence.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Hello, and welcome back to The Darya Rose Show. Today I'm speaking to the award-winning chef, new dad and all-around amazing human Dave Chang. David Chang is the chef and founder of Momofuku. Since opening his first restaurant Momofuku Noodle Bar in 2004, he has received six James Beard Awards and has been recognized as GQ's Man of The Year and a Time 100 honoree. In 2018, Dave formed Majordomo Media. He is the host of The Dave Chang Show Podcast and two Netflix original documentary series, Breakfast, Lunch & Dinner, and Ugly Delicious.

Dr. Darya Rose:

His cookbook, Momofuku, and memoir, Eat a Peach, are both New York Times bestsellers. And his new book, Cooking at Home, is coming out October 26th. Dave and I talked at length about feeding his picky toddler, Hugo. Yes, even Dave Chang has a picky toddler. (laughs) As well as how he's been cooking at home for himself and his wife, Grace, who just actually had their second little boy.

Dr. Darya Rose:

I'm sort of obsessed with his new book because the whole premise is how you can and should (laughs) learn to cook without recipes so that you can make your own delicious food in your own kitchen. If you know me, you know how deeply I believe that recipes are one of the biggest barriers to becoming a great cook. And Cooking at Home can show you exactly how it is possible for anyone. We have a fantastic discussion and I hope you enjoy. Dave, welcome to the show. Great to see you.

David Chang:

Hey, long time, it's been way too long, but it's great to see you.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah, so you, uh, you have a new little one. How is, how's Gus?

David Chang:

He's great. He just got a clean bill of health today and it's always nerve-wracking those first week or two, just because I know like Hugo had a bunch of like issues when he was born. So I don't know why I was expecting the same thing, but, uh, it was, it was great to hear that Gus is healthy as can be. So that's all you can ask for.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Absolutely. Well, congratulations. It's wonderful. And Grace is doing well?

David Chang:

She is. This has gone a lot easier for her. I mean, listen, it's never easy from a guy's perspective.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

I mean, we don't do anything compared to whatever you guys have to go through, but just having witnessed the first pregnancy versus the second pregnancy, I think it has been an easier journey-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right.

David Chang:

... as difficult as it is than the first one.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah, yeah.

David Chang:

I mean, she's doing much better. Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

That's wonderful. Well, I think that Hugo is probably 100% the cutest thing on the internet. I mean, I like, I like wait anxiously for all your videos about him. He's so freaking cute.

David Chang:

I feel so blessed to have him because my other friends with their kids, they almost say the same thing. I'm like, "I don't know what's going on here." But, um, I wish I could keep on posting stuff publicly, but there's just been some weird accounts and people like impersonating us and Hugo.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

And I was like, "Yeah, we got to keep this private now." So it's-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Ugh, so disappointing.

David Chang:

He makes people happy. He really does. When we post things, he's like, "Oh, he's made my whole entire week." So it's great to see that.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. Exactly. I feel that way all the time. So, um, yeah, it's a bummer that, that people get weird. But, um, so I mean, I don't wanna be too presumptuous, he looks like he has really good eating habits, but what's, what's the word on the scene? (laughs)

David Chang:

No, actually, no, it's all changed.

Dr. Darya Rose:

No? (laughs) Okay.

David Chang:

He was a great eater when we first introduced solid foods to him and up until pretty much age two, he would eat anything I would give him. And he never really wants like green leafy vegetables, but he would eat vegetables. Now, 24 months on, it's been all brown beige foods and he's on the anti-keto diet.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

He doesn't like protein. He only wants eat rice and, and noodles. But if you put anything else on top of the rice or the noodles, it's not. So I wonder, I always worry about nutrition.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

It's like, where's he... And he doesn't like eating vitamins or anything like that. But, you know, the pediatrician's like, "Don't worry about it. He's gonna be fine." He's extremely picky now. And I'll be honest as a professional chef, it guts me.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

And I know a lot of my chef friends felt the same way when their kids rejected their cooking

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

So I spend an inordinate amount of time, like just, I don't know, an hour a day, probably making his meals. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

If think about it, like 24 hours a day. It guts me because he just doesn't... And the thing he does like is just cereal and, and pizza. So we'll see. I, I'm, I'm hoping things change, but it's been a tough go. How about you?

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. Yeah. So I have, for people who don't know, I have two little girls. Zelda is almost four and Nova is just a month, I think a month older than Hugo. So she's two and a half almost, you know, she'll be three in February. And it happens, man. They're good eaters until they hit two and then all of a sudden, everything is too yucky. (laughs)

David Chang:

Ugh, li- literally that's what they say, yucky.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

And then they'll just spit it out.

Dr. Darya Rose:

It is hard. But one thing I will tell you is that with Zelda, I just kept preparing things different ways and she's gotten good at doing the one or two bite thing. You're, you're not getting that for... (laughs)

David Chang:

No. He, he looks at it with total disgust and dismay. He's like, "No." It's like, [inaudible 00:05:34] say no. And, uh, he's really good at avoiding it. So we're trying not to make food, uh, a, a weird problem for him as he gets older. So, you know, we talk to experts, or not experts, I talked to a doctor and they were like, "You should just have him eat the things he doesn't wanna eat the next meal."

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

But I feel that it's like, it, it, it's like punishment. I don't, I mean, 'cause he won't eat it. He just won't eat, (laughs) he just won't eat.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

So if you have any tips, advice, like I don't know what to do anymore.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs) Well, they do grow out of it, I was gonna say. It's kind of from two to three and Zelda was very much like this. She wouldn't eat anything. She would eat white cauliflower. That was like the one vegetable she would eat. I roast it so it kind of tastes like French fries. Like put a lot of salt and olive oil and actually she really liked curry powder.

Dr. Darya Rose:

And that was like the one vegetable she would consistently eat and everything else was white. But, you know, I'd give her a couple months after trying carrots and having them spit them out in her lap. And I try to cook them in different ways. Roasting is nice 'cause it turns basically all vegetables into candy. (laughs) You'd have to cook it hot enough. And that-

David Chang:

Yeah. I agree.

Dr. Darya Rose:

... that's usually been a breakthrough. Um, but it sometimes took nine months.

David Chang:

No, nothing for me. I, I, I have to hide cauliflower rice in his rice.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

And it's gotta be the perfect percentage amount or he'll notice it. And what I also understand is he actually knows that it's there and I think he just, he just sort of gives me a win occasionally. I'm surprised at how different, like his palette for textures is pretty high. So I don't know how, but I'm not able to really sneak too much by him and, you're right, caramelizing vegetables is an amazing way 'cause it naturally increases the sugar content, but he just doesn't like vegetables at all. Zero. I'm afraid he's gonna get scurvy, I legitimately think he's gonna get scurvy 'cause he doesn't even like orange juice now.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs) I have that too. Yeah. There is a story of a kid who got scurvy, like a five-year-old, but he only ate like chicken nuggets and French fries for like literally four years straight. So you got some time. (laughs)

David Chang:

Uh, and I would be more comfortable if he actually ate chicken nuggets and French fries.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right.

David Chang:

But he doesn't like that. He likes the ketchup. So he uses them as dipping instruments to eat the ketchup. So, um, you know, I'm just cooking a lot of rice and a lot of pasta and, uh, mac and cheese from the box 'cause he doesn't like my homemade stuff. That's not true. He's beginning to like some homemade pasta, but, uh, for the most part, anything that is strong in taste, it, it's just not happening.

Dr. Darya Rose:

And you choose not to have battles.

David Chang:

I've just given up. I mean-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

... I, I, I know like a lot of parents, I went into this thinking I'm going to feed him the best possible products, the most organic this, the farmers market that, whatever, whatever. And now if I see that he'll eat anything from any product, I'll buy it and, or I'll just give it to him. 'Cause I just, my main concern throughout the day is, is he getting enough to eat?

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

Yeah, but the one thing he drinks an extraordinary amount of is milk. So I, I, I'm I'm lucky there.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. That is just-

David Chang:

He just crushes, he crushes whole, whole milk. But he actually has a really good palette. If it's any other milk, 'cause like I was told we should like bring it down to maybe like 2% or something, if it's grass-fed, he won't drink it.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

If it's not full content, full fat content milk, he's not drinking.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Wow.

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

What, uh, and, and I'm assuming Grace has the same problem, do you guys use the same approach?

David Chang:

I'm making most of the food, but she doesn't like it when, um, Grace makes some food and I, I don't know. Maybe I should just stop cooking for him and Grace should just make all the food.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Don't do that to her. (laughs)

David Chang:

No. I mean, I think with me, if he likes the food, he's eating it himself.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Got it.

David Chang:

If he doesn't like the food or he is like lukewarm about it, I need Grace to help out.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Oh, I see. So she-

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

... she is a little more coercive? (laughs) In like-

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

... getting the-

David Chang:

Yes.

Dr. Darya Rose:

... or convincing?

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

That's good. So I'm curious, what, what does your mom say about this?

David Chang:

She thinks that we're not feeding him enough and that's the biggest complaint. And my, my mom says that, Grace's mom says that, and that we're not feeding him enough. What he does like are snacks. But this kid, (laughs) he'll only eat grapes that are peeled. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

That is demanding.

David Chang:

Yeah. That is demanding. I think my mother-in-law peeled him a grape once and from then on he's like, "Oh, I can have this without the peel?" So I stopped doing that, but we give him a lot of nuts. He eats a lot of pine nuts. That's his nut of choice, which is great.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Wow.

David Chang:

I'm happy to eat that. Uh-

Dr. Darya Rose:

So strong.

David Chang:

Yeah. Yeah. He loves pine nuts. That's the problem. Sometimes he'll just eat pine nuts and a glass of milk and that'll be, um, (laughs) that'll be his, his meal.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Really good squirrel. (laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah. I mean he loves cashews, he loves ba- he loves it all. And, uh, so I'm really good with that. So I'm happy that the, the snacks he chooses are like packed with, you know, calories and fat. He likes the, the more Korean snacks. There's this thing called [inaudible 00:10:32], which is like a puffed baked rice snack. Uh, he likes a lot of rice. Anything that's rice he'll eat, any rice snack, he'll eat. He doesn't like rice crackers though. And again, I, I have to take full responsibility. He loves anything that's salty.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

And, and I feel like I, I screwed up by introducing salt maybe too early into his diet. Um, and I'm trying to wean him off the salt, which is just the curse of my cooking right now. So I don't know what to do there.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Did your mom say anything about how you were when you were at two, toddler?

David Chang:

Um, no, she, she didn't. Other than like, I just remember, this is gonna sound crazy. So we always have like rice in our house. Um, always, and it's not just like white rice, it's rice with like, white rice with barley and other kinds of grains. And, uh, it's extremely healthy. I don't like it. I would rather just (laughs) eat white rice with Hugo.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right. (laughs)

David Chang:

But that's the rice we got. Uh, and as a kid I would eat it with water and I would just like make my own little porridge out of the rice. That's also what Hugo does. If he's gonna eat rice, he pours water into it. He mashes it up and then he eats it. That's, (laughs) that's it. It's like rice and water and my mom saw that and she's like, "You did the same thing." I was like, "I did?" And she's like, "You would eat it with American cheese though."

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

And, and again, like, I've given Hugo all kinds of beautiful cheese. And the only cheese he wants to eat is American cheese. And he likes it with that rice water mashup. And I don't know what to do. He's just become sort of my worst nightmare for eating. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

Oh, man. I thought I was gonna get all these tips from you about how to make a like wonderful (laughs) eater.

David Chang:

No, no, none. There's none from me. No, I have, I have tips like, uh, uh, there are some things I've done and [crosstalk 00:12:24]-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Like there's gotta be some like good Korean mom tips. Like I wanna, (laughs) I wanna hear these.

David Chang:

So these are the things that he will eat and I can tell you very clearly what they are, but what makes it difficult is, if I make it like two days in a row, I'm out. So I gotta find my moments to whip out the big guns so he'll eat something. I mean, one of my friends saw this, she's like, "You're crazy." I... (laughs) 'Cause I was so worried about nutrition for him. I started to give him salmon roe.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

From Japan, wild king salmon that's, uh, not like the salmon roe that you would often get. Actually, the only thing I get from one of my food purveyors from New York, 'cause I buy everything from everywhere most people buy, but it's the one specialty product that I'll get once a month and it's cured in some white soy. And for me that's important because a lot of the, the trout roe or the salmon roe is overly salty because that's how it's preserved.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

This one is much lighter in flavor in, in its salt. So I can put that on rice, he'll eat salmon roe like it's popcorn. And I think it's one of the most nutritious, healthiest things for him. And that's what he likes. He likes that so much that I have to like plan days that I can feed him something. That's it. When like I need him to eat something for sure, that's it.

Dr. Darya Rose:

I need that link from you.

David Chang:

Yeah. I'll send it to you. But, you know, and it's just one of the best foods I think for anybody to eat with, with all the Omega-3 and, and the fat content in it. It's great for a kid.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Well, not even that, so quick neuroscience, uh, lesson, (laughs) that the form of DHA, which is the Omega-3 fatty acid that's very concentrated in fish roe is lipophilic, which is actually much better for your brain. It's, it crosses the blood-brain barrier more readily and actually is much more effective at helping brain growth, brain healing, preventing dementia. So it, it's, like you're not making that up. It's even, it's better than just fish. It's actually a different form of DHA.

David Chang:

Well, I'm so happy that I have the, literally the expert tell me that because I just felt it was the right thing. In all my research that I did, I was like, "Oh, this is actually like really great for him." And it's the one food he has not stopped eating. The other thing that I feel like I ruined for him 'cause when we moved to California, the avocados were so great.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs) Yeah.

David Chang:

He won't touch an avocado now. And I, that's the, that's the one piece of advice I would give people is, if you have a picky eater as a child, at least I did, like, I, I, I thought I was bearing it up a lot more than I was. 'Cause avocados are so good, especially for a kid to eat. He just doesn't like them anymore. And that with some rice, that's a great dinner for him. And he just doesn't wanna do that anymore.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Oh, so you think you gave him too much?

David Chang:

100%.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. Okay. [crosstalk 00:15:04]-

David Chang:

I, I, I take full responsibility for him not wanting to eat avocados like he used to, because that was like one of his favorite foods. That was the very first food he ate when he was, uh, his first solid food. You know, we, we mashed up with some milk and just would eat that all the time and, uh, that stopped. The thing that I ruined again is eggs. He used to eat eggs all the time. What, what is your stance on giving kids eggs? Like, if they eat two eggs a day, is that too much for them?

Dr. Darya Rose:

I don't think so. The only issue is it can be an, an allergen. So people have to be careful to introduce small amounts consistently over time apparently. But I gave, uh, Zelda too many eggs, I think. And she got a egg allergy and ended up in the ER.

David Chang:

Oh, no. Oh, no.

Dr. Darya Rose:

And then, um, yeah, and then I gave her salmon roe, uh, like days later and we ended up in the ER again. (laughs)

David Chang:

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. She was six months old. It was awful.

David Chang:

Well, we thought Hugh had all these allergies too 'cause he's breaking out in hives. Thankfully he passed, uh, he doesn't have any allergies knock on wood, but it was more of the insect bites and stuff. But I thought it might have been the egg thing, but he just doesn't like the eating them now at all. So that's-

Dr. Darya Rose:

I'm sure that's common. I've heard a lot of kids don't like to eat eggs.

David Chang:

Really?

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

When he was, before two, I could, any, any kind of egg. Soft, uh, soft boiled, scrambled, whatever. He was, he was eating it. The one egg that he will eat 'cause he doesn't realize it's an egg, I don't think, is if I make a Chawanmushi. And that's a go-to that I make all the time. That's probably the best thing I could tell anybody listening to make, not only for their kids but for themselves.

David Chang:

And I, I make it in this bowl that I [inaudible 00:16:43] work on any day bowl and it's, I put eggs, and I'll put any liquid, it could just be with a little soy sauce or sesame oil, it could be any kind of broth. And I'll just put eggs, maybe, I don't know what's the measurement, pint or (laughs) I never take any measurements.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

Like a pint of a liquid. Yeah. Maybe a little bit less than a pint. And I'll just mix it up with chopsticks. Not too many air bubbles and I'll put it in a microwave covered for 10 minutes at 40% power, 30 to 40% power. Oftentimes I'll make maybe in the morning or the night before. You can easily do it with three eggs, it doesn't matter. It might break on you, so you gotta figure out the right temperature for your microwave. When I say temperature, the, the wattage-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

... every microwave is different and, uh, like 900 seems to be the standard. But, um, it's all different. So you gotta dial it in a little bit. But-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right.

David Chang:

... but I, I make that at least once a week and I'll serve that with rice. The only constant in his diet is rice. If I don't serve him rice, he gets really upset. And it, it's, if I switch out rice, it's noodles.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

And he's open to, thank God there's all kinds of noodles, but making a, an egg custard, a savory egg custard, he has no idea that he's really eating an egg. 'Cause it has the texture of like very soft silk and tofu.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Sounds delicious.

David Chang:

Yeah. So that's a go-to, but I, I'm having struggles having him eat breakfast because right now he just wants to eat cereal every morning and he doesn't even eat the cereal, he just wants the sugary cereal that I'm choosing not to give him, but somehow he just knows that if he waits, I think Christina Tosi would be so proud of this, he just waits and waits and waits till the milk has leached out every ounce and gram of sugar and then he just drinks the milk.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

(laughs) So you guys have any tips? Great. Um-

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs) I'm curious actually, is he snacking often?

David Chang:

Well, that, that's the debate right now is, especially with my mom and my mother-in-law is they're like, "You need to be eating all day, every day." Because in Korean culture, they want your child to be as fat as humanly possible. And they always complain, "He's too skinny. He's too skinny. He's too skinny." So feeding him snacks has been great 'cause he's eating. But we felt that, that also might be the reason why he doesn't wanna eat any meals.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Absolutely.

David Chang:

Right?

Dr. Darya Rose:

That's, that's the reason. (laughs)

David Chang:

But we've also tried it-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

... even when he is hungry, he won't eat certain things. He just won't. 'Cause of the texture. He just doesn't like it. He doesn't like chicken. He doesn't like salmon and I would cook rice, I use Doshi. If you're a parent and you need something flavorful to cook a lot of things in, make Doshi. And there's Japanese style and there's a Korean version as well. I make a Korean version a lot more than I do the Japanese, which is the katsuobushi, the dried bonito that's been fermented and smoked and shaved and it looks, people are familiar with it now.

David Chang:

And I'll make that occasionally. And I make that in a teapot. Um, 'cause you should brew it like a tea. And sometimes I'll make a big batch and I'll store it in, in pint containers in the fridge 'cause it's not gonna go bad. But more often than not, I'm making a, in Korean, it's called dashi pack. If you go to an Asian supermarket, I think you probably get it online. They're like dried fish seaweed, maybe some shrimp, there's different kinds of variations of it. And it's in an enclosed tea pack. So you just, you know, steep it like a tea and you have a beautiful broth that you can season however you want.

David Chang:

If I did didn't have that, I think I'd be totally screwed. (laughs) Totally, totally screwed. Because it's the one thing that I'm able to like give some flavor. I know that it makes things more delicious. There's more umami in it. And the one dish that I would make a lot and I haven't made it, maybe I'm gonna reintroduce it, uh, this week, is I will wash, I will add enough dashi so it covers it. I don't know. Again, like measurements are a little bit difficult. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

So it's, you know, uh, maybe a half an inch covering of rice and I'll add, uh, whatever seasoning I want, salt, fish sauce, I use fish sauce a lot. I use Red Boat Fish Sauce. And I'll just cook that off, 12 minutes, the easy recipe is 12 minutes, high flame. So once it starts to boil, you lower the temperature to like a low flame-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

... and it should in theory almost all in 12 minutes, if you cooked it right, all the water should have been absorbed by the rice or evaporated. That's when you can either turn up the stove to like get a lot of the crunchy rice bits on the bottom for like another minute or so, or you just turn it off. Again, temperature elevation matters a great deal. You shouldn't open up the lid. You don't have to have a clay pot, you can do this in any kind of pot, like a Le Creuset or something like that.

David Chang:

And, um, if it looks like most of it's been absorbed, just turn it off and you let it rest for the exact amount of time that you cooked it. And I'm using short grain rice. And as it's resting, I'll take some salmon, I'll slice it and I'll toss it in any kind of whatever, salt, soy, whatever, just enough. And then I'll layer it on top of the rice as it's resting and 12 minutes later, it's perfectly cooked. And then I mash it all up. I'll put some sesame oil on it. He loves sesame oil. And some Korean Gim, the, the, the seaweed laver that you can get anywhere. And I'll crush that up. That would be the, the holy grail is to have dinner that the adults want to eat-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right.

David Chang:

... and he wants to eat. That's a great dish. And you could put scallions, you could put any kind of mushrooms on it. Just that way of cooking rice is a great way that everyone should cook. I just think it's such an easy way to make a dinner, but he doesn't, it's the one rice [inaudible 00:22:19] (laughs) that he doesn't eating-

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

... and I've repertoire. And I think maybe, again, to my fault, he just gets of things so quickly.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

That I have to be more ahead of the game and, and I've been a little bit lazier just because things have been busy.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. That makes sense. It is hard. I, I use the seasons a lot because it just reminds me to try, try something new. I'm like, "Oh, right. Beets, right." (laughs) Seasons for that. Like, my kids have gotten sick of broccoli and I'm like, "Oh, that makes sense. You've eaten like 5,000 gallons of it." So, yeah.

David Chang:

You forget as parents.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

Like, "Oh, maybe they're not eating this 'cause you've given it to them 25 times in a month."

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs) Well, let's talk about feeding Grace because I think you're more successful with those Grace-

David Chang:

Oh.

Dr. Darya Rose:

... wanted. (laughs)

David Chang:

So, so easy.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

Oh my God. Thank God. We're changing topics.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Um, I, I, I've recently taken a peek at your new book and it is so cool. First of all, you talk about cooking without recipes and I can, you know, hear you here struggling to give a recipe. And I, thank you. Thank you so much. I've been telling people for years. I actually have a course, I've been teaching people to do this for years. And, uh, I'm just curious how you came to that conclusion because I imagine in restaurants, recipes are like super important.

David Chang:

If you work at certain restaurants where everything is measured to the milligram, it's about standardization, and places like, I don't wanna name names. There are restaurants that do that and it's incredibly effective because it protects the floor, right? You may not have the best meal, but it's not gonna be the worst meal for you. I'm not a huge fan of it. There's different schools of thought about cooking. Some of the very best dress of the world, there is no deviation from what the recipe is given for that day.

David Chang:

The only way and how I, I'm 100% pro recipes is the education of a new cook and, and chocolate making and things that need to be extremely exact in, in its creation. So that's when recipes and measurement are just imperative. You can't do it without it. But I never cooked at home, as crazy as that sounds. I never ever cooked at home until Grace got pregnant.

David Chang:

So I, I had no idea what it was like to cook at home (laughs) 'cause it's something I never did. And that sounds crazy, but I think I've discovered a lot of different things and, and I have a lot of different philosophies now about cooking at home. I won't say it's a negative, but, um, things have gone astray with the importance of how you cook in a professional kitchen. What works in professor kitchen does not work at all sometimes in a home kitchen.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right. But, but you still need a foundation, right? You need a foundation of food and science and how it all works together to make something that tastes delicious.

David Chang:

Yeah. It's like you need a basic understanding of science. I think science is so important. I also think this idea of cooking without a recipe isn't just like putting your, you know, licking your finger and putting it in the air to judge where the wind is going or whatever.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

It's like, the, the closest thing I can say is maybe there's a little bit more improv. Like I'm friends with a lot of successful comedians. People are like, "Oh, you just go up there and do whatever?" It's like, no, that took a lot of work to be able to improvise. And one of the things about improvising is reading the, the other actor or comedian on stage or reading the audience.

David Chang:

And I love data, I think cooking intuitively is, is actually about being much more open to things, not closed-minded and understanding that variables are changing. One of the variables are the ingredients that you cook with. Like, it's beyond stupid to me to be so pot committed to a recipe and then complain it doesn't taste the way I remembered it. Well, it's probably because your ingredients are constantly changing, you know? And I think people have... The most (laughs) inflammatory thing I could probably say is-

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

... recipes and the blind adherence to recipes are probably why people are so bad at cooking.

Dr. Darya Rose:

So 100%. So I, I interviewed, a while ago, I interviewed several dozen people to figure out why they didn't cook at home. And then I interviewed several dozen people that do cook at home. And one of the things I, that I kept hearing over and over again from the people who had failed to cook at home and didn't like it was that they would go to the grocery store with a list. Like, sometimes they'd have to go to two or three stores to find everything on that list for this recipe.

Dr. Darya Rose:

They don't really know what they're doing, so they would make it and it would be kind of bad. Then they'd still have a half an onion in the fridge, a few random carrots in the fridge. Those would all end up going bad because they didn't know what else to do with them. And then their food didn't taste that good so they didn't really like it. And then their leftovers would go bad and they're like, "I just wasted so much time and so much money and it wasn't very rewarding." Um, but it's largely because they were stuck in this idea that they had to make it this way and they didn't know how to fix it.

David Chang:

Yeah. (laughs) It's, I think it's this blind pursuit of getting things perfect or making things authentic. And I think, especially in the kitchen, this is something you could think about culture at large, but fantasizing about perfection, especially in food, gets in the way of good. And at home, just make something good and tasty, who gives a shit? It doesn't have to be perfect. People forget, make delicious food and reverse engineer from there. Like, it, and this idea of improvising or, or, um, using ingredients that are not exactly what the recipe says, like that's smart. And obviously-

Dr. Darya Rose:

'Cause you have them. (laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah. And it's also like thinking like, oh, you know, this recipe says that I need to use, um, you know, lemon juice, but I don't, I have lie juice. It's like, I know a lot of people that are like, "I can't make the recipe." It's like, "Are you fucking crazy?" Like just substitute it. That's like the most basic thing. Or like sugar or green and yellow peppers. Like, I, I think people, if you don't have a fresh like type of chili, but you have other means of spice, like that's an easy way.

David Chang:

So let's just say you have Tabasco sauce. Oh my God. I now have made my dish a little bit more acidic. So maybe you need to add a little bit of sweetness to balance things out. So it's constantly a give and take. So I, I don't know how to convey this more, but I, I, I really think that, I, I've been trying to find some kind of cop or analogy for people that want to follow recipes. Like if I post anything on social media about a dish and there's not, there's not a recipe attached to it, people get very upset.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

Like if they, they feel entitled to the idea that like, I need to be told exactly what to do. I know a lot of these people and they're smart, open-minded individuals. And I'm like, "Why are you so blindly adhering anything about recipes?" And I just think it's un- actually unhealthy.

David Chang:

So I found like the, maybe, I was doing my own podcast like, I was like, oh, I think the best way to tell somebody that is a recipe follower, you know, like a zealot of following recipes, how, I don't want to say stupid, but how there's other ways to do it, is like, if you told somebody, if you're going to have sexual relations with another person, you need to follow-

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

... have a, a textbooks, you know? This is, this is how you do it.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Sexy. (laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah. It's like, people would laugh at that. People say, "That's so dumb." That's not... You know, it's like, five minutes of this, six, six minutes... You, you know, like this is the posi- You don't do that. People can I think generally understand that's-

Dr. Darya Rose:

You could do that, it would just be boring. (laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah. So if you can understand that surge stupidity of that, that's almost the exact same thing you're doing in something else that's sensual and pleasurable, and that's eating and cooking that food. So if you can understand that, that principle on, on, on sex, then it's weirdly the same principle for cooking and following a recipe. It's just open up your eyes a little bit. And I think there's so much more that you can experience.

Dr. Darya Rose:

I love it. (laughs) Okay. So if somebody is listening to this and is like, "Oh my God, I've been doing this wrong my whole life." Where do you start?

David Chang:

As in cooking? I, I, I just think making mistakes, make... You know what? Like, I tell people to start off cooking eggs, you know, like eggs are, are, are not expensive. They're cheap. And like, just start cooking things where you can screw up, right?

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

You can only learn by making mistakes. Make mistakes. And that's what I mean by recipes are the great obstacle to becoming a better cook is because you're not learning anything. And cook something that is affordable enough for you to screw up. You're not going to be that afraid to experiment and to mix and match because that's how cuisine starts, is by happy accidents and finding your voice and learning how to seize it.

David Chang:

The biggest issue is people don't know how to salt foods properly. You know, my problem is I probably use too much salt. So that's where I would start is, is like just start cooking. And I think even before that, when you want to cook without a recipe, it's not just like going in blindly, you have to be prepared. You know, you have to have things around you to be able to work with, to, to make decisions on the fly.

David Chang:

And cooking on the fly doesn't mean not being prepared. It is having tools at your disposal and ingredients at your disposal so you can make decisions and tailor to what you need in that moment. Like I, I was doing this this morning, for example, I, I had a leads 'cause we were doing press four for, for the show and the book. And I oftentimes make lunch when I make breakfast.

David Chang:

And I was like, I have 30 minutes, I had bought some pork chops thinking I was going to make, um, 'cause Grace really likes Tonkatsu, right? Like the fried pork chop with panko. And I had some cabbage and I was going to make bulldog sauce, the whole thing. But I was like, I don't have time. I can buy that pork chops another day. But I, I don't know what else is there. I'm pressed for time. I'm going to make this now with the... I'm going to use the pork chops now. And I started to just figure out what I was going to do.

David Chang:

I was like, oh, I'm going to season. I season with some savory salt. I started the pan with some garlic and some olive oil, and I didn't want to dredge the pork chops. I don't know what I was thinking so I just like got a bowl and I just put flour in it. And I just started mixing it up with salt and pepper and, and the s- and the savory salt.

David Chang:

And I started to roast those off and then I added onions. And then next thing you know, I'm like, oh, I'm going to add some Calabrian chilies to it. But I didn't because Grace can't eat that because she's nursing Gus. So like I had to change that in the moment. So I, I, I just like, okay, I'm going to make this more like pork chop masala, instead of like a fiery, creamy tomato braise pork chop that I was going to serve with spaghetti. And I, that's easy to do. I have all the same ingredients. I'm just not going to add tomatoes.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

That's pretty simple. I mean, again, I made that decision on the fly because I, I, I, I knew that I had Calabrian chilies. I wanted to use them, but oh, I have some button mushrooms that I didn't get rid of. I'm just, I, I didn't have any cream for the sauce. So I added just a, an ungodly amount of butter. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

I do that all the time. (laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah. And it worked out great. So I, I, I, I do that all the time. It's just making decisions on the fly. But part of that is knowing what's in my, um, pantry, knowing what's in my refrigerator. And that is the one thing that, again, um, when I say professional things shouldn't be brought over to the kitchen, it's the, it's the, it's the techniques. It's the cert- certain like stupid things you do in professional kitchen that work in a professional kitchen.

David Chang:

The one thing for certain that you should adopt from a professional kitchen is your mise en place, which is French for everything in its place. It's the thing you hear all the time in top kitchens. I don't cook without knowing everything that's in my kitchen and pantry. Like I know everything. I know what's frozen here, I know the date that something's going to expire here. I know the cheese that I got to use to make X, Y, Z. So it makes it a lot easier when I'm thinking about what's in my pantry all the time.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right. Because it narrows down your options.

David Chang:

Yeah. It's like, okay, I, I was going to make a salad today and I, I didn't, somebody must've eaten one of the other nice avocados. So I couldn't use it today. It's like, okay. But like that was going to be the protein in the salad, but I had half rotisserie chicken. So I just pull the chicken and that was the protein for the salad. It's like, they're just variables that you can switch out for one another.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. You know, when I, I was just thinking, I, I taught myself to cook when I was in grad school because I lived in San Francisco and then I went to one fancy dinner and I realized I could never eat normal food again, but I didn't have any money. (laughs) So, um, I started teaching myself to cook and I started with vegetables because vegetables are not very expensive.

Dr. Darya Rose:

You know, you can get a bunch of kale, some broccoli like for a few bucks. You can have enough food for several meals for one or two people. And that was a great way to get started because, well, first of all, with the vegetable, you don't have to worry about getting too sick, if you, (laughs) if you taste it while-

David Chang:

Right, right.

Dr. Darya Rose:

... you're cooking it. So, you know, if, if you undercooked a piece of broccoli, you're going to live if you taste it. And, uh, and also you can do, you can explore like pretty much any cuisine you're curious about on top of a vegetable. So that was a really, really, that was something I did that made it easier to kind of get my foot wet. So I got scared of cooking meat, you know, until later, then I, then I sort of, once I felt pretty confident with, I knew how to use acid and salt and heat and all those things. And, and once I was there, then I felt more confident to use a more expensive kind of meat or something like that.

David Chang:

But that's, you just described exactly how somebody, I know we just told people don't follow recipes, but this is the one recipe you should follow if you want or if you're bad at cooking and you want to be better and more intuitive. You just gave a great example, start messing around with vegetables, potatoes, broccoli, learning your palette, getting a little bit better at knife skills.

David Chang:

A lot gets lost, and I tell this to my own cooks all the time, about the, yes, visual food needs to be beautiful, blah, blah, blah. But people talk about aromas and all these different intricate things that you can taste. At the end of the day, you can taste five things on your palette. That's all you need to be a maestro. (laughs) And don't worry about anything else. Like salt, I mean, I feel like, so me right now, salt is (laughs) [crosstalk 00:36:16]-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right.

David Chang:

... [inaudible 00:36:16], it's, it's a real thing. Umami, bitterness is a really important thing. Acidity is so crucial to tying things together in food. Like, I love adding acid and sweetness to food. And again, my professional philosophy for acid in a dish is, if you can taste the acidity in a dish, you added too much.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Chang:

Unless the dish is supposed to be like ceviche or something like that. I'm adding acid or jars of lemon juice all the time. I'm adding agave, I use agave all the time because it's easier to sort of mix into a dish rather than sugar. And it's not something to make food taste sweet. It's to balance it out. They're like, like an el- electric bass in a rock band. It just rounds everything out a little bit. At the end of the day, like s- learning to salt your food is probably more important than anything else. And doing that with vegetables is a great way of learning.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. And you touched on something a minute ago that, you know, your pallet isn't the same as someone else's. So like one of the best reasons to cook at home and to cook without a recipe is to, A, figure out, and B, make food that you like. (laughs) 'Cause then that's like a great way to cook healthy as well. Because if you can make healthy food that tastes good, then you have nothing to complain about about not being healthy.

David Chang:

No, absolutely not. And, you know, like I make, I ask Grace all the time, like just for lunch today, I said, "Where do you want to take this?" I, I made a salad, I said, "Where do you want to take the salad dress? You want it where?" Like what part of the world?

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

And she hates it when I asked that. But like, I, I want to know, because whatever she's fancying, I want to make that for her. But right now she just wants me to make her Japanese food. She normally would want Korean food, but she can't eat spicy. And she really likes, I would probably say she, she has said it in the past and (laughs) her mother-in-law, they don't necessarily love my Korean cooking, because it's not homey enough. It doesn't taste like something they're comfortable eating. Like my mom hates my Korean food too. She just doesn't like it at all.

Dr. Darya Rose:

You're kidding me. (laughs)

David Chang:

No. They don't like it. They don't like it. I swear to God. They think it's different. Things, things are a little bit different. Um, like I'll make Korean [inaudible 00:38:17], which I made recently, but sometimes I'll make it with lentils. Like sometimes they're not comfortable with the substitutions, or I'm just mixing things around that I know I can make good, but it's a little bit different than something that people have nostalgia over and they're comfortable with.

David Chang:

So Japanese food right now is something I make at least one dish a day, I'm making Japanese, because it's what Grace wants right now. It's, it's a, it's usually something soupy or something that is mild. And, uh, it's also very versatile. And, and it's also, (laughs) it also sort of hurts my feelings. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

It's what everyone in my household wants me to cook these days now. So, uh, I think they're telling me something, I should just make Japanese food.

Dr. Darya Rose:

You know, uh, speaking of Japanese food and, and, you know, the different things, that's one of the things I really love about, you know, kind of the, I think the intro of the book is sort of in a lot of ways the most important part, where you talk about setting up what's going to be in your house. And I love the way you broke down the pantry into, you know, like these are, these are the acids that I use, these are the, the spices that I use, these are the aromatics that I use.

Dr. Darya Rose:

But then you broke it up like, "Well, I cook a lot of Korean and Japanese food and that's why I have this." And then your co-author was like, "Well, I make a lot of Indian food so this is, (laughs) this is why I have this and this." And that was, it was so cool because with that framework, you can see how you can mix and match.

David Chang:

Absolutely.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Like, exactly, like if you, like, yeah, if I mint in my pantry, that means, like if you're talking about salad dressing, if I have mint that means I'm making Vietnamese salad (laughs) dressing. If I have cilantro-

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

... I'm either making like Indian or Mexican. But like, you kind of have to get, get there. And sometimes I start like with a restaurant dish I really like, and then refr- re-engineer it backwards, reverse engineer it from there.

David Chang:

But that's what professional chefs do all the time. They went to a restaurant, they had a dish that made them really mad 'cause it was so good.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

And they just go back to the kitchen and they try to like recreate it and like try to figure out what makes it so good. So, you know, like, this is just what I think good cooks should do, is be inquisitive, be curious and, uh, be open, right? Like, we wrote [inaudible 00:40:16] book in New York City, I'm in, I've been in California for like some time now.

David Chang:

And everything I make is not what I cooked in New York City because I have the abundance of Southern California. There's so much more vegetables in our diet because, guess what? I'm sorry New York, like, as much as I love The Green Market, it's not as good as the stuff that I can get here, and it's lighter.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Truth.

David Chang:

Everything is lighter. Ans it's just the truth.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

So-

Dr. Darya Rose:

It's truth.

David Chang:

... you know, it's like, I would be an idiot to like not use the berries, to not use the zucchini, to not use the, you know, the sugar snaps will be coming in season in like a month and a half all over again, there are like two Springs here in Southern California.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). (laughs)

David Chang:

And like people don't even know that. Like, and like I now know, like I haven't bought strawberries because it's not strawberry season quite yet, but it's, the blueberries are really ripe. So it's like, part of that is, again, you said cooking with the seasons, I just, I have a hard time seeing anybody move to a place and being so steadfast in their ways as to never changing how they cook.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah. I, I've had to leave New York. (laughs) [inaudible 00:41:19] California, I was like, "I, I can eat at restaurants, but I don't have enough produce here. I have to go." (laughs).

David Chang:

(laughs) I remember you telling me that-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

... a while back. But it's, it's true. It's, it's, it's, uh, the West Coast fruits and veg, I mean, I, every time I go to the Farmer's Market I'm like, "They have fucking dates. They have like real dates here." (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

They grew here. Yeah.

David Chang:

Yeah. They grew here. It's unbelievable.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Well, I, like I was saying, I basically taught myself to cook exactly what you're talking about. I, I didn't have any skills. I, you know, nobody ever taught me anything, but I had great ingredients 'cause I lived in San Francisco. And I would just go find things and then take them home and figure out things to do them. I messed up a lot, but usually it was edible, you know, it just like wasn't the best.

Dr. Darya Rose:

And, but, you know, I mean, maybe once or twice, I, I threw out a whole, (laughs) a whole dish that got ruined in some way, but, and that's how I learned. And I, and that is what I did. But, but it's interesting because all I learned was my way, you know, and I've eaten in a lot of nice restaurants, but I've never felt like I could cook like you. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

But one of the things that's cool is reading your book now I feel like I can. Like, I'm going to go fill up my spice drawer (laughs) with some, some Korean goodies and some Indian goodies. And, um, I'm k- I feel like I'm going to go on a new adventure doing what I've done in the past, but like I'm already at the next level. And it's, it's really exciting.

David Chang:

I mean, having spices and a good one, good ones at that, it's just a game changer. Like you can go any direction. I can't stress that enough. If you're bored with cooking and you want to explore, if you want to take it to the next level, I, I, again, like getting better produce, getting better products, that is a whole 'nother thing, right? Like you just already said, like I stepped up to meat because that's the next challenge. I think for a lot of home cooks, cooking fish isn't that challenging? I don't want even want to talk about fish right now. That's a whole-

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

... mess of a situation because of how people buy really, really bad fish. That's just something we, we, we cook very little because I, I just don't think you can get the right quality. I'd rather people buy frozen fish 'cause I just know that the s- the [inaudible 00:43:21] of it is way better than anything you might-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah, totally.

David Chang:

... [crosstalk 00:43:24] supermarkets. So the next highest level, like if you're going to view this as a video game, I think is learning how to incorporate all the vegetable things you've cooked, all the, the proteins you've cooked and merge it with new ways of thinking about food through spices, um, and dry pantry ingredients from around the world.

David Chang:

It is a never, never ending quest for that kind of stuff. And you can simply just start with great black pepper. It is a, a life-altering moment when you taste really fresh black pepper from like Cambodia or Kerala, uh, in India. Because when you taste that you, you realize like, oh, this is why... [inaudible 00:44:05] change the world. Like you see food in technicolor and everything was black and white. Um-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Totally. Great example or a great, great way to put that.

David Chang:

So like, it, it doesn't have to be crazy. It's just like, whatever you're comfortable with, just go a little bit deeper and maybe you can get it from a different region. And I can't stress that enough. Like, you don't need a huge variety of spices, you just need a couple of really good ones. And, you know, that, that, that's the next level. I'm on, I'm still on that journey of figuring out what that is. But, um, you know, we're talking about Indian spices.

David Chang:

Like, when I talked to Priya Krishna, I have no idea half the spices she's talking about, because a lot of it is proprietary to each family. That's super interesting to me. But I also know like I can't really make that stuff right now because Grace can't eat it and she definitely doesn't want anything like that right now. So I, I'm just trying to figure out how to make flavorful foods that my wife can eat, trying to introduce these same things to Hugo, but that's the one thing, I'm always trying to have them taste something, uh, usually unsuccessfully.

Dr. Darya Rose:

The science says that picky kids sometimes they have to taste it 15 to 20 times.

David Chang:

Oh my God.

Dr. Darya Rose:

But they will accept it, eventually. Usually they will accept it. And I've made, so Zelda's just totally come out of it. I even got her to eat mushrooms the other day. I couldn't believe it. Uh, I got her to like a beet. She still turns her nose up at some of the nice cheeses, which kills me. But, uh, Nova is in the, in the crux, like of kind of where you are. Not quite as bad, she will, (laughs) she will eat some stuff, but she spits stuff out at me all the time.

Dr. Darya Rose:

I think that, ah, if you just stick with it, I think you'll make a lot of progress on that front. Yeah. And, and I'm just really grateful, uh, for what you, you and Priya have created. I think it's such a, a great starting point for somebody learning to cook at home and get over those fears, I think. And, um, make, may even take them to make something that's delicious. Who knows?

David Chang:

Well, I, I, I hope my, my son can follow your kid's path because I, I was talking to, uh, Pablo Torre, the ESPN journalist, and he was like, "Why do you guys care so much about this?" (laughs) Because it's my job. It's like-

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

... you know, it's like, you know, it's, chefs take extraordinary pride in getting somebody to like like their food. And when it's your own child, you just want them to have the best. And it's something I understand so much. And, and, um, I don't know if I gave a lot of good tips, but it's just, you gotta keep at it. And, um, it's hard. It's definitely hard. And I, I think the thing I have to tell myself as not fall in the trap of giving them the things that I know they're going to like, you know, all the time.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

Like a hot dog.

Dr. Darya Rose:

Right. That's the trap. Right. You kind of need to do that later. That, I mean, like you said, it's your job. Like, I feel like my job is to make my kid eat healthy. You have like, my kids gotta eat vegetables. (laughs) So yeah, this is really, really hard when they're like, "Yucky, [inaudible 00:46:40]." (laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

But, I mean, but, you know, I, we, we're getting there. I think we're, we're a little bit ahead. So I think there's some light at the end of the tunnel for you.

David Chang:

God. I hope so.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

I hope so. I, and I just want them to eat the meals that we're making. 'Cause I, I don't know about you, but I get tired of having to make separate meals for each dinner. (laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah, now that's-

David Chang:

Or each lunch. It's just that-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Uh-uh (affirmative).

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs) That, that shouldn't, that shouldn't be your fate. Um, so why don't you tell us some more about, uh, where we can learn more about your book and, uh, where people can find you on the inter-webs?

David Chang:

Most of my social media handles are David Chang. You can find a lot of the products that we're making on Momofuku's website. [crosstalk 00:47:18]-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Oh, yeah. That's stuff's great. (laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah, thank you. [crosstalk 00:47:21]-

Dr. Darya Rose:

I love your soy sauce.

David Chang:

Thank you. That's the one thing too that, um, that's been a godsend is a lot of the stuff that we're actually making that our lab helped create. Like I know what's behind it. So definitely [inaudible 00:47:31] likes those things. We have a TV show coming out on October 26th on Hulu called The Next Thing You Eat. We take a peek behind, uh, around what's, what's around the corner with, uh, with food tech and the restaurant industry.

David Chang:

Yeah, this book is coming out, Cooking at Home, that's October 21st, and you can get that anywhere. I think, uh, hopefully you should find it in your local bookstore as well. But, uh, I didn't realize there was so much going on, but there's a lot, there's a lot.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs) You do have a lot going on. Well, and you're a new dad, or second time new dad with, uh-

David Chang:

It feels like, it feels like a first time dad. Like, you know what I, I hate about this whole being a parent again is everybody that's told you that it's going to be hard, it's going to be challenging, all of these things, they're all right. Nobody, no one-

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

(laughs)

Dr. Darya Rose:

They're assholes.

David Chang:

Nobody's undersold the challenging nature of this and what I'm surprised is how much I forgot-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Yeah.

David Chang:

... for the first [inaudible 00:48:24]. But-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Well, I feel like the second baby is slightly easier, but if you have a toddler, all that is erased by a lot. (laughs)

David Chang:

Oh my Lord. I, I, you know what? I have, I just don't know how my mom did it for four kids. So-

Dr. Darya Rose:

Holy moly.

David Chang:

... sh- sh- yeah, shout out to all the moms out there. I have no idea how you guys have done it for so many years, (laughs) forever.

Dr. Darya Rose:

(laughs)

David Chang:

Yeah.

Dr. Darya Rose:

All right, Dave. Well, thank you so much. And, um, yeah, everybody should pick up Cooking at Home. Thanks for listening today. Definitely check out Cooking at Home by Dave Chang and Priya Krishna, which, not kidding, is currently a number one bestseller on Amazon in microwave cooking. (laughs) Seriously though, it's a fabulous book and I'm sure you'll love it. And if you follow @davidchang on Instagram, you may get a glimpse of the cutest toddler in the world every now and then. Thank you. And I will see you next time.